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Date:	11/22/99 12:16:11 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, November 22 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1376<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Comedy Quote Chain?<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
Re: Ine Givar<BR>
Re: Comedy Quote Chain?<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
Vargr<BR>
Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
Planetary Assault Techniques<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
Re: Traveller Music (was RE: Traveller-like fiction)<BR>
Water as weapons (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
Re: Water as weapons (long)...<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
Vargr<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:48:49 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Comedy Quote Chain?<BR>
<BR>
I wonder just how big a crater a Marine falling from<BR>
orbit would make?<BR>
<BR>
"Bigger than one made by any pimply-faced,<BR>
weak-kneed Army Rapid<BR>
Intercourser, By God!  An' smile when you call me<BR>
'Impy'"<BR>
- - Armsman/1c Gerg Schulters, Lima Co, 1183rd Marine<BR>
Regiment (Hell on the Half Shell), interviewed while<BR>
under a table at the 404 Club.<BR>
<BR>
"Only if the Marine landed head-first.  The<BR>
hollow-point effect, don't you know."<BR>
- - Corporal Shannash Irkirkhaamn-Noland, Alpha<BR>
 Co, 1199th Jump Infantry Regiment ("Aces and Nines"),<BR>
upon hearing of<BR>
Armsman/1c Schulters' remarks.<BR>
<BR>
"Well, it's good to know that the Navy always<BR>
 will land us at the right place."<BR>
- - - Private Naive Bastard, Charlie Company, 5th<BR>
Battalion , AIF, Gallipoli, April 1915<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 "Right-o, mate.  And they keep us so ruddy<BR>
 well-supplied, too."<BR>
 --Corporal Knows Better, Company A, 2nd Battalion,<BR>
 British<BR>
 1st Paras, Arnhem, 21 September 1944<BR>
<BR>
 "Yes, Goering promised he could supply us from a<BR>
 great<BR>
 distance, easily."<BR>
- -- Oberst IntheScheiss, 223rd Bavarian Hills<BR>
 Infantry, Stalingrad, 1943<BR>
 <BR>
 "We'll be home by Christmas."<BR>
 - Uncounted multitudes of soldiers, marines, sailors,<BR>
and airmen, of<BR>
 many nations, and too many wars.<BR>
<BR>
"A thousand body bags on this ship? But that's less<BR>
than one per squaddie! I'm not sharing a body bag with<BR>
you, you worthless sod!"<BR>
- - Squaddie on the way to the Falklands, 1982<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:54:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
Are the exact strategies that important? Are your<BR>
players all Admirals in the Imperial Navy, or<BR>
Commanders of a rebellion or something? Just wondering<BR>
if we're not getting a little abstract...<BR>
<BR>
- --- Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> wrote:<BR>
> At 09:13 PM 11/21/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >    If you're dropping troops to the surface to<BR>
> grab what is, in all<BR>
> >likelihood,<BR>
> >an already well-defended target, such as a starport<BR>
> or other "high value<BR>
> >target", why wouldn't you make that, or one of<BR>
> those, your main beachhead?<BR>
> >If you're talking "hit and get" raids, yeah, but I<BR>
> got the impression that<BR>
> >you<BR>
> >were talking seize and _hold_ the starport.  <BR>
> <BR>
> Way bother grabbing the starport at all? If<BR>
> commercial starships can land<BR>
> at a type X starport (AKA a big empty field) than a<BR>
> combat lander should be<BR>
> able to. <BR>
> <BR>
> So, for a planetary assault you could drop a brigade<BR>
> or two in a deserted<BR>
> spot. They grab a large enough area for your combat<BR>
> engineers or seabees to<BR>
> build a new starport. The new starport lets you land<BR>
> troops in a secure<BR>
> area while the people on the planet are busy<BR>
> re-routing their troops to an<BR>
> area they were not prepared to defend. If you are<BR>
> not willing to bombard<BR>
> high value targets, well, the local troops will be<BR>
> coming to you so you can<BR>
> hit them in a low value area.<BR>
> <BR>
> And if the locals don't come out to play? Grap the<BR>
> rest of the planet and<BR>
> starve them out. (What tech level does weather<BR>
> control become practical?)<BR>
> <BR>
> Granted, this won't work with a world with a high<BR>
> enough pop. A world with<BR>
> a population greater than maybe 7 or so, you will<BR>
> probably end up having to<BR>
> hit at least  some of the population centers hard.<BR>
> This might start out<BR>
> with EMP bursts and escalate (clean airbursts to<BR>
> burn soft targets) if the<BR>
> locals didn't surrender.<BR>
> <BR>
> And a final thought. The Imperium is made up of<BR>
> 11,000 worlds. Burning one<BR>
> world every few decades might be a cost effective<BR>
> measure if it makes other<BR>
> worlds think twice about leaving.<BR>
> <BR>
> Richard Wilson<BR>
>      <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:57:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ine Givar<BR>
<BR>
From:           	"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Date sent:      	Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:50:24 -0600<BR>
<BR>
> On 11/22/99 at 11:35 AM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
> >I wrote an article for Pyramid that was published about a year ago on<BR>
> >the Ine Givar. It's still there in the archives. Check out<BR>
<BR>
> He won't get much of that article unless he's a Pyramid Online<BR>
> subscriber.  <g><BR>
<BR>
> IMO, it's worth $15 a year.  So, I recommend it to everyone, and if<BR>
> you drop my name I think I still get a free month.  <hee hee> I<BR>
> recommend it even if you *don't* use my name. <BR>
<BR>
I guess its just such good value that I assumed everyone was a subscriber<BR>
(and thats not just hype) :*><BR>
<BR>
> Andrew did an article about the Ine Givar and posted it on the TML<BR>
> before he wrote his Pyramid article.  It is archived in Digest 168<BR>
> of 1998.  He can't give out the one in Pyramid, but the one in the<BR>
> TML Digest is (or should be) still available for free download<BR>
<BR>
That was the basis for the Pyramid article, but I think the one in<BR>
Pyramid is better.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:59:24 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Comedy Quote Chain?<BR>
<BR>
On 11/21/99 at 08:48 PM,  Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I wonder just how big a crater a Marine falling from<BR>
>orbit would make?<BR>
<BR>
>"Bigger than one made by any pimply-faced,<BR>
>weak-kneed Army Rapid<BR>
>Intercourser, By God!  An' smile when you call me<BR>
>'Impy'"<BR>
>- Armsman/1c Gerg Schulters, Lima Co, 1183rd Marine<BR>
>Regiment (Hell on the Half Shell), interviewed while<BR>
>under a table at the 404 Club.<BR>
<BR>
>"Only if the Marine landed head-first.  The<BR>
>hollow-point effect, don't you know."<BR>
>- Corporal Shannash Irkirkhaamn-Noland, Alpha<BR>
> Co, 1199th Jump Infantry Regiment ("Aces and Nines"),<BR>
>upon hearing of<BR>
>Armsman/1c Schulters' remarks.<BR>
<BR>
>"Well, it's good to know that the Navy always<BR>
> will land us at the right place."<BR>
>- - Private Naive Bastard, Charlie Company, 5th<BR>
>Battalion , AIF, Gallipoli, April 1915<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "Right-o, mate.  And they keep us so ruddy<BR>
> well-supplied, too."<BR>
> --Corporal Knows Better, Company A, 2nd Battalion,<BR>
> British<BR>
> 1st Paras, Arnhem, 21 September 1944<BR>
<BR>
> "Yes, Goering promised he could supply us from a<BR>
> great<BR>
> distance, easily."<BR>
>-- Oberst IntheScheiss, 223rd Bavarian Hills<BR>
> Infantry, Stalingrad, 1943<BR>
> <BR>
> "We'll be home by Christmas."<BR>
> - Uncounted multitudes of soldiers, marines, sailors,<BR>
>and airmen, of<BR>
> many nations, and too many wars.<BR>
<BR>
>"A thousand body bags on this ship? But that's less<BR>
>than one per squaddie! I'm not sharing a body bag with<BR>
>you, you worthless sod!"<BR>
>- Squaddie on the way to the Falklands, 1982<BR>
<BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
>member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty<BR>
>Int, Carlton Soccer Club Melbourne<BR>
>Australia<BR>
<BR>
>"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and<BR>
>it binds the universe together"<BR>
<BR>
"And just remember...if it ain't broke, you ain't really trying!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
AKU GM<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:20:53 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Are the exact strategies that important? Are your<BR>
> players all Admirals in the Imperial Navy, or<BR>
> Commanders of a rebellion or something? Just wondering<BR>
> if we're not getting a little abstract...<BR>
<BR>
Actually, PCs in a planetary assault situation would tend to find the<BR>
tactical situation (what is our immediate mission objective, how do we<BR>
get there, what support do we have, and who will relieve us) far more<BR>
important than the echelons-above-gawd (EAG) strategic view (why are we,<BR>
at _this_ time, seizing _this_ world, and how will we assemble the<BR>
needed forces to seize it).  Thus, while an EAG game (such as _Fifth<BR>
Frontier War_), with a ground force scale of units up to field army<BR>
size, can abstract space, ground-space interface, and ground combat, the<BR>
typical PCs will _need_ to have all the details we're discussing in this<BR>
thread.<BR>
<BR>
(Yes, I know that I skipped the operational level of war.  In my<BR>
defense, I would expect most warfare-related campaigns to place the PCs<BR>
either in the units actually engaging in combat [see _Striker_ for<BR>
details], or in positions on the General Staff, deciding how to<BR>
prosecute the war as a whole [as in FFW].  Even operational-level<BR>
campaigns [with the PCs as commanders of combat operations involving a<BR>
single world] would require knowledge of the tactical doctrine being<BR>
employed by units under those commanders' direction.)<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:17:20 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
Subject: Vargr<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> charismaticly bangs out:<BR>
 >>>Interesting thoughts. I've played them more like a<BR>
 >wolf pack, with a<BR>
 >strong leader having to show off his strength to the<BR>
 >others.>><BR>
 >Like the Klingons, you mean? (I always wondered if MM<BR>
 >ripped them off ST...)<BR>
<BR>
Vargr predate the Movie & Post-CT Klingons.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining<BR>
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical<BR>
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:29:33 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
<BR>
Note that I said that they will not be used <em>regularly</em>. This both<BR>
agrees with our world and the canon Traveller universe. You should think of<BR>
my original post as my thinking which leads me to believe the canon universe<BR>
in this area.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the comments about greater capacity for violence making war<BR>
infeasible are also less than relevant to my original comments. The point is<BR>
that even with the capability for extremely high levels of violence, most<BR>
(notice the use of this word, in case anyone decides to give a list of<BR>
counterexamples) groups agree to a set of conventions which limit the impact<BR>
of the fighting.<BR>
<BR>
Rambling on:<BR>
<BR>
Note that even under the current law of land warfare, you are entitled to<BR>
reprisals if your enemy violates the conventions. Considering the number of<BR>
violations by the Iraqis in the Gulf War, think about the possible *real*<BR>
reason for some events in the war.<BR>
<BR>
Even further afield:<BR>
<BR>
Much like the SCA, who do not reenact history as is was, but rather<BR>
something like<BR>
"history as it should have been," Traveller is not the future, but "the<BR>
future as it should be," at least from the POV of the authors. In reality,<BR>
it will not even be close, but that<BR>
shouldn't stop it from being an interesting game.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:37 AM<BR>
Subject: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> > This is the ultimate reason why it is very unlikely<BR>
> > that such things like<BR>
> > near-c rocks will be regularly used as weapons.<BR>
><BR>
> I want to disagree with you here. During war, more or less every weapon<BR>
> that is effective to use will be used. Kyle pointed out the atrocities<BR>
> commited by the *allies* during WWII as an example. Especially the<BR>
> bombings of Dresden were interesting, as it was not a military target.<BR>
> On the contrary, many German civilians had gone there to avoid being<BR>
> bombed. The bombing was done at that spot in order to ruin the German<BR>
> morale quickly...<BR>
><BR>
> > Civilizations which progress far<BR>
> > enough to reach advanced technology will also have<BR>
> > come to the same<BR>
> > conclusion.<BR>
><BR>
> Hehe... if we (stupid humans) learned from history, that is, we would<BR>
> have come to the same conclusion. I do not have the exact wording for<BR>
> this quote, but one of the Wright brothers said (about the flying<BR>
> machine) that this machine will make further wars impossible, since the<BR>
> potential for destruction is so great.<BR>
><BR>
> Sadly enough, it had been said before. A pope (don't know which, have to<BR>
> find my quotations collection) once said (not an exact quote either)<BR>
> about a new weapon that it was too accurate, silent, quick, and deadly<BR>
> to allow for any more wars. That weapon was the crossbow...<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Seeing things in this light, I find it rather improbable that<BR>
> nukes aren't used by most cultures in Traveller. IMTU, the Imperium (and<BR>
> thus their client states) have laws forbidding them, but many other<BR>
> cultures use them. The below notes are further information about nuclear<BR>
> weapons IMTU.<BR>
><BR>
> The Vargr haven't got the knowledge, and the Zhodani won't give it to<BR>
> them (the Zho's have got the Bomb, but they are afraid of an escalating<BR>
> war). The Darrians have no problems whatsoever with using nukes if they<BR>
> need to, and they have bombed several of the Sword Worlds. The Sword<BR>
> Worlder's have done the same to the Darrians... This is exactly the type<BR>
> of conflict (with the Imperium) that the Zhodani are afraid of.<BR>
><BR>
> The K'Kree gladly nuke "bad" worlds, but won't destroy inhabitable (to<BR>
> them) worlds that way. Aslan follow the Imperial way of thinking, but<BR>
> some clans just *might* have an ace or two up their sleeve.<BR>
><BR>
> I haven't considered Droyne or Hiver's, since I don't have any material<BR>
> on these races yet (I'm waiting for GT: Alien Races 3).<BR>
><BR>
> /Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:38:52 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Planetary Assault Techniques<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 11/21/99 2:12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, j-man@iname.com<BR>
> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Which brings up a question for me; assuming the forces have control of the<BR>
>  'high ground', whats the best way of dropping your troops in order to capture<BR>
>  the planet?  Together in armored shuttles (I think this is a bad idea<BR>
>  myself) or like in Starship Troopers, where they drop individually<BR>
>  'halo-style'? >><BR>
> <BR>
> I like the FASA Renegade Legion method of dropping grav vehicles from<BR>
> orbit....<BR>
<BR>
Actually, all three methods are important components of a planetary<BR>
assault.  Large (battalion or larger) jump troop formations will be used<BR>
either to seize the initial "spacehead(s)", or to secure key terrain<BR>
features to prevent or delay the enemy's early counterattacks on the<BR>
spacehead(s).  Smaller formations (battalion and smaller) would conduct<BR>
diversionary raids, to disrupt the enemy's ability to respond quickly to<BR>
the assault.  For assaults on low-population worlds with few high-payoff<BR>
targets, jump troops, possibly reinforced by small grav vehicle<BR>
contingents, may be sufficient to secure the world under attack. <BR>
Attacks on these target worlds would most likely consist of Imperial<BR>
Marine regiments, with little or no Army participation in actual<BR>
combat.  OTOH, if Army units of corps size or larger are to be involved<BR>
in active ground combat (as compared to counterinsurgency, pacification,<BR>
or occupation duties), then the preferred units would be Army Rapid<BR>
Interface formations.<BR>
<BR>
The jump troop lodgments would then be reinforced (if necessary) by grav<BR>
vehicles descending from orbit.  These forces would provide the<BR>
firepower needed to enable the invaders to expand the spacehead(s)<BR>
enough to provide fairly secure rear areas.<BR>
<BR>
However, the vast majority of troops, equipment, and supplies would<BR>
reach dirt via shuttle (and/or landing-capable starships), landing in<BR>
the now-secured rear areas seized and expanded by jump troops and<BR>
direct-assault grav vehicles.  After all, the biggest problem with<BR>
direct-drop forces is that resupply is too difficult to maintain for<BR>
long periods of time without use of shuttles and/or landing-capable<BR>
ships.  The shuttle-borne flow of supplies, reinforcements, and<BR>
replacements to the spacehead(s) will enable the invader to secure both<BR>
important objectives on-planet and travel routes betwen those<BR>
objectives.  These forces will almost always consist of Imperial Army<BR>
forces that have been mobilized from regular or colonial subsector<BR>
elements.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:55:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Lyle Youngblood" <lyley@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
>From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
<BR>
>Way bother grabbing the starport at all? If commercial starships can land<BR>
>at a type X starport (AKA a big empty field) than a combat lander should be<BR>
>able to.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Radar and/or other sensor/scanner installations (probably best on the<BR>
planet), small craft and local naval bases, repair facilities, warehouses<BR>
(full of stores potenially useful to either side), I  assume that the<BR>
planetary<BR>
political and/or industrial heartland will likely be fairly close to the<BR>
main<BR>
starport for ease of access.  Most of this assumes a down starport, but<BR>
an orbital one will be taken fairly easily early in the campaing.  Even if<BR>
you don't want to hold the downport, you probably want to disrupt it heavily<BR>
to minimize enemy use of it.  And you don't want to scrag it completely<BR>
unless your in a "total war" environment, because it's too damn expensive<BR>
to rebuild.  To me, this means either a hit-and-run raid or outright seizure<BR>
is desirable.<BR>
    Also, although a really big combat lander probably CAN land in an open<BR>
field, I expect re-inforced surfaces will be prefered.  Chief Engineer to<BR>
Captain: "Sir, due to uneven sinkage rates, we appear to have taken on<BR>
a 12% cant to starboard and nearly 15% towards the bow.  I reccommend<BR>
EXTREME caution on take off."<BR>
<BR>
Lyle<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:50:58 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Music (was RE: Traveller-like fiction)<BR>
<BR>
> > I really think that, once a list is created, we should add it to<BR>
> > the FAQ, along with the suggested Travelleresque reading.  But<BR>
> > that's my opinion.  YMMV.<BR>
> <BR>
> What we really need is a TML Knowledge Base, the few  times  I've<BR>
> tried to use the archives in the past I've  found  it  difficult.<BR>
> Anyone want to set one up?<BR>
<BR>
Love to, but I don't have a permanent connection to the internet. <BR>
I'd suggest BITS or downport would be the appropriate locatons<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:10:25 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Water as weapons (long)<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
IMHO, the best riot control weapon is something with no medical side<BR>
effects, able to be targeted effectively, and has minimal secondary<BR>
effects.  Watar canons seem to fit the bill. Water casues no alergic<BR>
reactions, the delivery will at most cause abrasions and blunt trauma<BR>
(on hitting the ground  or obsticals) and can be aimed to avoid<BR>
children and elderly (who have a higher chance of sustainig more<BR>
serious injury with the secondary effects.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote<BR>
>>><BR>
You've never seen what a regular fire hose can do, have you? And you've<BR>
*definitely* never seen what a water cannon can.<BR>
<BR>
At the speeds and pressures involved, the *water* can break bones. You<BR>
don't have to be thrown against anything.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
I reply:<BR>
<BR>
Selective quoting can be a bitch. If you read the previous paragraph I stated<BR>
that non leathal weapons aren't. I meant that no matter what is used, fatalities<BR>
*will* occur. No Ifs, no buts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard again:<BR>
>>><BR>
There are pictures available of the time the authorities used "mere"<BR>
firehoses on civil rights demonstrators in the South. And you can see<BR>
the water stream "pick up" and "throw" people 10 and 20 feet. Anything<BR>
pushing hard enough to do *that* and less than a foot across can and<BR>
will produce blunt trauma all by itself.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
I reply:<BR>
<BR>
A knoted string will kill in the wrong hands. Any feasable riot control weapon<BR>
requires a brain to use. If you are going to use high preasure water at knife<BR>
fighting ranges, then you MUST expect casulties. It was one of the strong points<BR>
mentioned in the Non Lethal Weapons show on Discovery.<BR>
<BR>
Water IF USED CORRECTLY is:<BR>
<BR>
1. Non irratant. It will not cause fits and alogegnic reations. It is non<BR>
poisonous. It cannot cause toxic shock. If it does puncture the skin it can not<BR>
cause any secondary effects (apart from the trauma itself).<BR>
<BR>
2. Aimable. Yes you can aim at heads. But aiming at the torso or legs is more<BR>
effective and harder to avoid.<BR>
<BR>
3. Cheap. In non deasert enviroments, water is cheap, and in a pinch can be made<BR>
by burning hydrogen. Any starship can be used as a riot vehicle in a pinch (and<BR>
may be a feature on some ships!).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard again<BR>
>>><BR>
As for water cannon, there are cases on record (from repressive<BR>
regimes) where they were used and *cut people in half*. Those things<BR>
can punch holes in concrete blocks or some frame buildings. Using them<BR>
on people is *not* remotely "without medical side effects".<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Again, we are talking about the system, not the people using it. If you want to<BR>
use it to kill, there are better ways of doing it. If you using excessive force<BR>
to crush a riot, why use water? Plasma guns and Fusion guns haver better ranges,<BR>
better blowthrough (I got 3 gollywogs with 1 shot!) and better fear causing<BR>
atributes (people wont generally assult a plasma gun enplacement no matter<BR>
what). I can suppress a riot with knotted sting, and kill people with it (and<BR>
has been historically used , it's called a whip).<BR>
<BR>
<scenerio : Me as riot suppressor commander><BR>
<BR>
Do I have the will to use lethal force and live with the consequences?<BR>
<BR>
No.<BR>
<BR>
If called to suppress a riot with water, would I do it? Yes.<BR>
<BR>
Why?<BR>
<BR>
Because I know if I keep control of the situation, I can minimalise the<BR>
causualties. I want to cause fear and loathing in the rioters, not martyrs for<BR>
the cause. If I loose control of my troops, no mater what they are armed with<BR>
(chopsticks, canes, whips, SMG's, black puddings) they can and will kill. (Ask<BR>
the East Timorese).<BR>
<BR>
</scenerio><BR>
<BR>
I would fear a uncontrolled force armed with silly putty , or a force willing to<BR>
use leathal force more than I would a profesional force with a water cannon.<BR>
<BR>
And history shows that sooner or later, a government that resorts to leathal<BR>
force against its own will fall.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:09:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> So my figures say he goes off like 11 times his mass<BR>
>> in TNT. Assume 250<BR>
>> kilos for trooper and suit, and you get the<BR>
>> equivalent of an old time<BR>
>> "block buster" bomb (actually about 2.6 tons of TNT)<BR>
><BR>
> So drop a whole division and its like a Hiroshima<BR>
> bomb?<BR>
<BR>
Only if you can get them to drop in *really* tight formation. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> "Any volunteers for special duty?"<BR>
> - Famous question in the military<BR>
<BR>
"Sir! No, sir!<BR>
- - Any halfway intelligent trooper...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:13:51 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Water as weapons (long)...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 5:10 PM<BR>
Subject: Water as weapons (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     <snip lots><BR>
> If I loose control of my troops, no mater what they are armed with<BR>
> (chopsticks, canes, whips, SMG's, black puddings)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Black puddings?  Doesn't one have to be a proponent of Eccie Thump (sp?) to<BR>
use these with effect?<BR>
<BR>
Just wondering?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
     "See Bill Oddie with women's clothes on, in, 'Enter with Drag On!'"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:24:05 -0500<BR>
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
> "Any volunteers for special duty?"<BR>
> - Famous question in the military<BR>
<BR>
"Sir! No, sir!<BR>
- - Any halfway intelligent trooper...<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
"That's one 'volunteer'.  Any others?"<BR>
- - standard NCO's response to above comment from "halfway intelligent<BR>
trooper".<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:33:47 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Vargr<BR>
<BR>
>>>Interesting thoughts. I've played them more like a<BR>
>wolf pack, with a<BR>
>strong leader having to show off his strength to the<BR>
>others.>><BR>
><BR>
>Like the Klingons, you mean? (I always wondered if MM<BR>
>ripped them off ST...)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Considering that the TNG Klingons are basically what every<BR>
Englishman thought Scots Highlanders were like (and, depending<BR>
on era, weren't always wrong), ST was hardly being original...<BR>
<BR>
 Anyone whose spent time watching dog or wolf packs knows<BR>
where the Vargr came from...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 03:08:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote<BR>
>>>>>>><BR>
> I'm sorry if I misconstrued your argument. I thought you were refering<BR>
> to the Centauri treatment of the Narn. Whish as I recall was prety close<BR>
> to bombing the planet back to the stoneage. And yet the Narn didn't<BR>
> really give up, they just went underground.<BR>
<snip><BR>
Second, that's fiction. What reaction intelligent being would have to<BR>
getting smashed down *that* hard isn't something we can easily predict.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Not just intelligent beings - *alien* intelligent beings. While Narns may<BR>
be played in the show by humans in fancy makeup, it could be very<BR>
dangerous to assume that "real" Narns will respond to all situations in <BR>
similar ways to how humans react.<BR>
<BR>
Narns seem to me a bit more fatalistic than humans, for example.<BR>
Such fatalism may allow them to collectively do some pretty heroic<BR>
looking things, as they'd have an easier time convincing themselves <BR>
that death is a reasonable price to pay for the attainment of a goal.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1376<BR>
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